Vector Imaging

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What software are you using for vector imaging? Do any of you use Photoshop or Illustrator? If so, have any of you used image ready in photoshop for animations or flash? I've been trying to use Illustrator CS2 but it's pretty confusing without any instruction. I've had some luck in photoshop just keeping it simple but I'd like to take the leap to full blown illustrations from beginning to end. Half the time in Illustrator once I get something I like I don't remember how I did it. 

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Oh Man... This is my favorite hobby.  I love this topic.

Thousand years ago, I started with Photoshop.  Hate Adobe interface...things are not intuitive and difficult to find.  Then went to PSP for raster imaging mostly dropping away from PS and vector graphics for a few years.  I have had PS Elements for a while and avoided using it.

Well last year I went back to ADOBE CREATIVE SUITES PREMIUM to create a bag design for a new product we were going to make in our manufacturing plant. Still am not a fan of Adobe interface after all these years even with all the changes!  And the PRICE is VERY outrageous, even when you get a used edition that someone where someone transfers their registration.  Hate that.

In the end, so far my favorite VECTOR program is XARA XTREME PRO.  And the latest version of Pro has VERY compatible PDF export which is the standard file formatting now in Illustrator so settings will not be lost.  Xara's performance is far faster and the interface is simplistic yet handles some of the most complex features. Has a good forum that is very helpful too. Many of my old plug-ins/filters (.8bf files) work GREAT in Xara.  Still learning the program but so far it is just plain FUN to use!  NEVER felt that way about ADOBE products. While learning the product ("playing" ) I converted an old raster graphic into vector and now we have a scalable mascot for our website AND packaging.  Never felt lead to do that when I used the Adobe products!

Xara Xtreme is a VECTOR program that also offers all-round image support with SOME bitmap/raster image editing. It also does some FLASH exporting as well as animated gifs.  You can see a PANORAMA FLASH I made totally with XARA Xtreme PRO here:  h**p://www.samisite.com/germany/ourwoods.htm  and a second one with subtitles that fade in/out here:  h**p://www.samisite.com/germany/loggingroad.htm   (note: links to PDF files do not work anymore).  Those flash pieces were made from photos taken in Germany last year. The more I work with the program the more I like it.  And the PRICE is VERY NICE!  Unbelieveable considering everything it does, including the PANTONE colors for professional printing in the PRO version!

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I may need to look into it? Laying a vector graphic over a raster image is too good-looking to pass up. I don't think Illustrator will let me turn a rastorized image into a vector image without literally recreating it in points. If so, I haven't figured out how. I use a couple Xara products already but I got a good deal (free) on the Illustrator which is still too much.

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turn a rastorized image into a vector image without literally recreating it in points

Yup you still have to draw your images in pieces to convert a raster to a vector in XARA.
But you can use BITMAPS for fills,etc.

Check it out here:  h**p://xara.com/products/xtreme/?v=pro&t=

Kinda like CSB in that the interface LOOKS too simple to do all that it does! Guess that's part of the reason I like it. It is the first vector program that actually makes me WANT to learn "how do they do that"! 

Xara Xtreme = $79, 15 day trial    and Xara Xtreme Pro = $199, 30 day trial
I started with XX and went to XXP so I could have PANTONE and PDF exporting compatible with Illustrator.  Plays on same ball field with Illustrator EASILY!  Still learning but am having TONS of fun...very addictive program.

BY THE WAY.... The dragonfly graphics (purple/gray) that indicate new posts were made in XXP.

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Sam, I have been using Xara X1 for some things, but find it quite limited. Is Xtreme, or Xtreme Pro worth the extra money? Guess I should download the trials.
Rick

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X1 HAS pantone support built-in
XX does not. This release actually went DOWN with some features to get provide an ENTRY program.
XXP has pantone support again, WITH extended PDF support and flash added.  If you need to send images to profesional printers, this one is necessary to stay compatible with PS and Illustrator.

Check out features here:  h**p://xara.com/products/xtreme/features.asp?t=
An upgrade from x1 to xxp would be $120 now.  (Had an early purchase discount in December that you missed.)

Download the 30 day trial (full PDF support will be released at end of January only on CD).
You can install it on the same machine as x1 and try it out. Will NOT interfer.  I still have XX and XXP on the same machine with Webster and my other Xara products 3d6 and webstyle 4 (menu buttons, nav bars, etc).  Of the Xara products I own, I like this one the most BY FAR. (never used x1)

Take a look at the tutorials on youtube.com   search for EggBram for his 33 tutorials on Xara topics.
And if you look at the demos and other samples in the gallerys and xaraone tutorial/workbooks, you will see the program interface appears limited but can actually do far more than is apparent! 

Personal Choice.  Try it and see if you like it or not....Nothing lost...

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You almost have to have the PDF support. It's like having a walkman without earphones without it.

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If you just want to make web images, or print out stuff from your own computer (many do) then XX is fine.
If you want to have compatibility for PRINTED graphics, XXP is the way to go.

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Samantha, I don't know Xara but would you say it is easier to use that PSP. I use PSP version 9 for all graphics. PSP was a product of Jasc but has been taken over by Corel.

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I have used many versions of Paint Shop Pro, the last one I bought was version 9 because it was the end of the JASC line.  (The Corel versions are very different and Corel, in my humble opinion is updating TOOO often for TOOO much money. They are charging too much for each upgrade and its no longer worth it for me.)

I love my PSP version 9.  It is still my favorite raster program. Hands down. If working with pixel images (Photos, etc) then this is my program of choice.  Started out with Photoshop and dropped back to PSP because it was more LOGICAL and user friendly.

Comparing it to a vector program is difficult. They have different purposes.  Though XX and XXP have some photo editing abilities, they are not nearly as advanced as PSP.  The filters that are built into PSP are more useful for some of the image adjustments.  The Vector abilities in PSP are lacking. This is where XX or XXP picks up.  For drawing vector graphics (fully scalable DRAWINGS) XX is FAR easier and more intuitive than PSP. Vector graphics are most often used for logos. They can be very complicated layered pieces that almost get a photo quality.

After using PSP for years, trying XX was a challenge.  The interface is very different and took getting used to. But in some things, XX was faster to learn.  I miss certain features like Erase background, but that is a RASTER function not a VECTOR function.  I've gotten very good at quickly tracing areas. the lines and nodes are easier to play with in XX than PSP for me.  You would need to download and try it.  Watch a few of the videos (some will download into the program from the web for you if you go into the HELP section).  Then try it yourself.  It is FUN to work in and very addictive. And as usual, I like the FORUM.  Supportive and nice folks devoted to helping others learn the program.  Some of what they accomplish with Xara Xtreme is amazing. I know my skills will never develop to that level!

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  Thanks for the very informative reply. A while back, you posted a special Xara was offering. I downloaded XX but only got to it after the trial period was finished, so I will start again.

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Bring in XXP and you get a 30 day trial.

By the way, trying to compare raster PSP with vector XX is like trying to compare an SUV that pulls a trailer with a 2 seater sportscar.  Both have their purposes/uses.  Both have great features. They feel and act differently for totally different rides and steering.

If you want to create vectors, PSP is not the best option.  In fact, it is very limited. Turn to a vector "program. If you want to tweak photos (red eye, crop, etc) you can do that in XX.  But more elaborate editing is best left to a raster program.

PSP interface is set for raster editing.  XX is set for VECTORS.  Illustrator and Corel's DRAW are industry standards. Purists will say the ONLY vector program you need is Illustrator and that if you use something else, you are not "professional".  I humbly disagree.  I have seen really crappy work done in Illustrator and other "professional" software.  Owning the "professional" program does not give you "professional" abilities.  Xara's vector programs has MANY "professional" users that prefer it over the bloated, high $ competitors and create fabulous results with it. I own "professional" software Adobe's CS2 premium and I prefer XXP for the simplistic interface and useability.
(Same argument for Dreamweaver vs any other website software...."professional" software in the hands of untalented people still produces bad results)

Xara Xtreme Pro (XXP) can import other vector graphic images now:
.AI Illustrator EPS
.EPS Illustrator EPS
.EPS CorelDRAW 3 & 4 EPS
.EPS FreeHand 3.0 EPS
But you must use PSD format from Photoshop for export into XXP since it can not read Photoshop's EPS format.

XX can not import PSD files from Photoshop, only pro can.



FYI for folks reading this thread not sure what the difference is:
Draw a circle in a Raster image.  It looks great at that size.  Make it smaller and it probably still looks decent. But when you expand it, the edges get raggy, showing the pixels around the edges.  Rasters store the picture information as pixels, dots of color. JPG, BMP, TIF, etc are all Raster type images.

Vectors are mathmatically stored so the exact distance between point a and point b remains the same % no matter if the image is 1 inch or 17 inches. That same circle drawn as a vector can be shrunk or expanded to many times its size and there is no loss of definition.  No raggy edges.  Perfect for making company logos that would need to appear in many different sizes, yet still look sharp.  AI, EPS, PDF, XAR are all vector type graphics.


Check out the TUTORIALS and STUFF here for XX of XXP.  The featured artist area shows WHAT CAN BE DONE by people with talent and X1, Xara Xtreme or Xara Xtreme Pro.  Check out the forum at  h**p://talkgraphics.com/

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Sam, your post is very helpful. Guess I had better watch some tutorials and make sure I am using X1 to its potential before I think of moving up to XX or XXP.
Rick

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At minimum everyone should have a viewer like Irfanview with its very basic editing functions will give the user a way to crop, resize, add text and even buttonize images. People like my mother like this type of software and don't want anything more. She has no need for a PHOTO editing program.

If you want to edit PHOTOS, usually this means you need a RASTER program.  The quality of the program you need depends on the types of functions you want to do to your photos.  PSP is the highest level CONSUMER software.  Photoshop is COMMERCIAL software. PSP will use PS plugins so there is very little difference in actual abilities in the RASTER functions.  Price is vastly different.  PSP has a faster shorter learning curve than PS.  These programs often offer some vector abilities but they are more limited in this area.

The majority of consumers do not need VECTOR programs for day to day image work.   These programs are for graphical artists, commercial logos, etc. Illustrator and Corel Draw are kings in the commercial market and charge big $$. Some raster abilities are included in vector programs.

Please note: Xara is not a newcomer to the vector graphics game.  It is an old hand and offers more speed more compact files than Adobe or Corel can offer. Xara used to LEASE its drawing engine to COREL for its COREL DRAW!!! Yup. After years of that arrangement, Xara pulled its drawing engine back home and decided to release X1 as its own product.  Xara's Xtreme came next with the idea that non-commercial users could finally afford a vector program.  And finally Xara's Xtreme PRO came out in December offering FULL COMMERCIAL ABILITIES at a consumer price structure.

XX allowed webmasters and small businesses to get into the vector graphic arena.  (EX: Using VECTOR images instead of RASTER images to create gel like buttons means that they can be adjusted to any size to hold any text and they don't get that raggy distorted look. Xara's button maker and webstyle use vector graphics then export to jpg or gif for use on the web. But those products are limited to certain templates. With XX you could make YOUR OWN design)


As with ANY software, the USER is the judge. If the software is not comfortable to use, and the user hates to open it, it is not the best choice for them.  The best suggestion I can make:  Download a couple different software, and try them on.   It's not a one size fits all thing.  Find one that suits YOUR needs, YOUR requirements, YOUR brain and you will be happy using it.

Rick, defiinitely watch some of the videos, test out some options in the program you already have.  See what the program can do for you.  The x1 is loaded with lots of goodies and functions. Probably more than you realize!

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Learn from my mistakes. If you are designing artwork for a client for their website, inevitably you are going to hit on something they are going to want to use in another medium. You either need to design giganticly in a raster format and scale down jpg, png, etc for web publishing or design vector images. Most likely you'll not design vectors because you are so used to raster formats. I've had the client want to change their business logo and branding to the one I designed for their website. Had I designed it as a vector image this would not be a problem, and I would have made a lot of money. But going back in and recreating from scratch raster image sizes that can be used for business cards, signage, t-shirts and so on is extremely time consuming and the client doesn't understand why you can't just push the magic "make it bigger" button. Since I learned this lesson I've done the main logos as vectors and turned one design into a product I could resell to the client four or five times. If they don't use it. Nothing gained nothing lost. When it does come up, it will save you more work than time you spent learning to build vector images. Just sayin'.

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The above post ended up on the wrong side of the split. Pretty normal in my life. 

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I moved it back to the right side of the split

Once, just once, I produced in raster then had to go back to recreate in vector for print ad. Not fun to rework it. I had asked up front for all uses intended. Not again baby!    I am not a graphic designer. But do really enjoy working with these programs!

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I built this as a vector and when I rasterize it, it loses it's snap. Is there a saving trick anyone knows that still gives the art that lift a vector image is supposed to have?

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All depends on the export settings used when the raster image was made.
And what you intend to do with the graphic.

Vector graphics are perfect for logos as you have done.  Many times, they are best made into GIF for website use, TIFF (300 dpi) for many printing purposes.

What program did you make your logo it in?   Depending on the program, I might be able to play with your original image and see what I can produce.

JPG:  Since you exported as a jpg, did you adjust your slider for optimization?  If you are set to 80-85% compression, you will lose detail.  If you move the slider to 85-90% it will be better, then you can run a sharpening filter to make it a bit crisper.

GIF:  If you export as GIF, you can limit number of colors, etc.

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I think I did it to myself? I imported the cards without rebuilding them with the point tool and I think that converted the image. There's never a short cut. 

I use Adobe Illustrator (badly I might add).

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I also have Illustrator and am learning to get around in it....So far I like XARA XTREME PRO better.

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I've been looking at vector programs lately. Right now, I wouldn't need anything terribly compex, but I do need to make logos that can be used online and be printed - although for the time being (and maybe forever) I'd be doing all the printing on my own computer. I've checked out Inkscape (open source), but while it seems pretty much up-to-speed for online graphics, its printing capability isn't there yet (especially iffy on getting colors correct when printed).

Both Illustrator and Corel Draw are touting their new raster tracing features for turning a raster image into a vector object. Do any of the Xara versions have something similar? Of course, I don't know how good Illustrator's and Draw's features really are, although they make them sound wonderful. Does anyone have any experience with those?

I know that ultimately I'll just have to download trial versions and test them myself, but if anyone has used a tracing feature I'd be interested in comments/comparisons.

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Xara has a tracer.  Not a fan of it. Easier and faster to trace with pen.
Will give the Illustrator version a shot tomorrow and see if I like it better.

Price-wise, XARA Xtreme PRO is $199, yet it is compatible with the guys that cost $500 or more!
Yes, download, try and visit their forum for some excellent help.
Many of the GURUS there also have Illustrator and CorelDraw and have only used them because XX could not export/import pdf in the same way as the others.  Now that XXP is out, many of them are going full time with XXP instead.

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Illustrator is really hard to stumble through. I don't have anyone to teach me so, I just have to play with it. It takes me hours to do a single image and when I try to import other vectors instead of a multilayering effect where it really pops (as a vector should) they look flat and more like a rastor image. I've tried saving them in multi formats to no avail. I can pull off a single vector image but layering lot's of work for a cool poster or t-shirt is evading me. I hate to give up my high dollar version of Illustrator but I'm getting frustrated. Here's my latest site (it's still short some content but the layout and design is finished.) Any image that looks rastored is my vector and any image that looks like a vector is from webstyle 4.

www.bigslicksbarandgrill.com

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Lots of JPG artifacts in your logo.  OUCH. 
I agree Illustrator has a high learning curve. Still learning it and feel awkward in it myself.

The CD version of XXP comes with a detailed printed manual, and CD of tutorials so I am dying to get mine in the mail (Xara is still shipping out to people who bought during the pre-print sale like me).   If it is written as well as the XX version, I will be a happy camper. Makes learning for me much easier!